1 00:00:20,410 --> 00:00:09,510 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:27,999 --> 00:00:23,330 hello and welcome to the skeptic zone 3 00:00:31,790 --> 00:00:28,009 episode number 82 for the 14th of may 4 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:31,800 2010 it's Richard Saunders here my 5 00:00:38,630 --> 00:00:35,090 little studio in Sydney Australia an 6 00:00:41,299 --> 00:00:38,640 interesting show this week a grain of 7 00:00:45,130 --> 00:00:41,309 salt with Iran so give and Iran is 8 00:00:48,229 --> 00:00:45,140 talking to John McDonough a firefighter 9 00:00:50,619 --> 00:00:48,239 yes a firefighter skepticism and 10 00:00:53,689 --> 00:00:50,629 firefighting critical thinking and 11 00:00:55,490 --> 00:00:53,699 firefighting here's an interesting take 12 00:00:59,119 --> 00:00:55,500 on critical thinking I think you'll 13 00:01:02,780 --> 00:00:59,129 enjoy it after that we have dr. Rachel 14 00:01:06,020 --> 00:01:02,790 reports with a an update without wacky 15 00:01:08,210 --> 00:01:06,030 and crazy and zany freaked out friends 16 00:01:11,030 --> 00:01:08,220 at the Australian vaccination at work 17 00:01:13,609 --> 00:01:11,040 what what wacky adventure have they been 18 00:01:16,940 --> 00:01:13,619 up to this week we'll find out soon with 19 00:01:19,310 --> 00:01:16,950 dr. Aichi now i'm pleased to say just a 20 00:01:21,980 --> 00:01:19,320 couple of days ago I finally finished 21 00:01:25,910 --> 00:01:21,990 editing filming and editing the first 22 00:01:28,970 --> 00:01:25,920 skeptic zone sort of official video in 23 00:01:33,350 --> 00:01:28,980 the new how it's done series where we 24 00:01:34,790 --> 00:01:33,360 look at applied kinesiology now if you 25 00:01:36,530 --> 00:01:34,800 want to look at that video online and 26 00:01:39,050 --> 00:01:36,540 recommend it to your friends or whatever 27 00:01:41,690 --> 00:01:39,060 the case may be it starts lots of an 28 00:01:44,420 --> 00:01:41,700 interesting skeptics own people check 29 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:44,430 out the official YouTube channel of the 30 00:01:50,180 --> 00:01:46,650 skeptic zone which is skeptic zone 31 00:01:52,430 --> 00:01:50,190 podcast and it's right there skeptics 32 00:01:56,180 --> 00:01:52,440 own podcast presents how it's done 33 00:01:57,590 --> 00:01:56,190 applied kinesiology and in fact what I'm 34 00:02:01,910 --> 00:01:57,600 going to do is I'm going to put this 35 00:02:05,539 --> 00:02:01,920 video in a day or two into the itunes 36 00:02:07,389 --> 00:02:05,549 feed so we've lucky people with iphones 37 00:02:09,770 --> 00:02:07,399 and ipod touches and things like that 38 00:02:13,670 --> 00:02:09,780 well you can just watch it on your video 39 00:02:15,589 --> 00:02:13,680 will get the video downloaded hey just 40 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:15,599 the thing to take to the next mind-body 41 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:18,690 wallet festival and show some people I 42 00:02:25,309 --> 00:02:22,530 hope you enjoy it it was great fun to 43 00:02:27,649 --> 00:02:25,319 make I learn the secrets trick people 44 00:02:31,550 --> 00:02:27,659 it's all there recommend it to your 45 00:02:33,690 --> 00:02:31,560 friends and see how you go oh well I'm 46 00:02:36,630 --> 00:02:33,700 going to go out myself now and grab 47 00:02:44,410 --> 00:02:36,640 dog so well I'm doing that enjoy the 48 00:02:44,420 --> 00:02:55,199 you 49 00:03:06,129 --> 00:02:57,989 let's all take this with a grain of salt 50 00:03:07,959 --> 00:03:06,139 is Iran tickets on McDonald is a 51 00:03:09,879 --> 00:03:07,969 firefighter you might think that it's 52 00:03:12,129 --> 00:03:09,889 odd to interview a firefighter for a 53 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:12,139 skeptical podcast but there's a simple 54 00:03:16,270 --> 00:03:14,810 explanation John recently signed up for 55 00:03:19,420 --> 00:03:16,280 the Sydney skeptics meetup group and 56 00:03:21,729 --> 00:03:19,430 wrote the following in his profile I'm a 57 00:03:23,860 --> 00:03:21,739 firefighter whose job is to train others 58 00:03:25,659 --> 00:03:23,870 our problems are based on critical 59 00:03:27,550 --> 00:03:25,669 thinking and doing everything we can to 60 00:03:30,099 --> 00:03:27,560 understand the signs of our occupation 61 00:03:32,830 --> 00:03:30,109 only that keeps us safe in a dangerous 62 00:03:34,659 --> 00:03:32,840 workplace Jon the critical thinking 63 00:03:37,179 --> 00:03:34,669 firefighter welcome to the skeptics on 64 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:37,189 podcast yeah thank you very much it's 65 00:03:41,110 --> 00:03:39,530 good to be here can you start by telling 66 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:41,120 us a bit about what it is that you 67 00:03:47,439 --> 00:03:44,090 actually do in your day job I'm actually 68 00:03:51,220 --> 00:03:47,449 a manager of one of our training such 69 00:03:54,129 --> 00:03:51,230 sections we deal with the live-fire 70 00:03:57,189 --> 00:03:54,139 training and teaching other firefighters 71 00:03:59,860 --> 00:03:57,199 be our best help help us to fight fires 72 00:04:01,990 --> 00:03:59,870 in particular structure fires so you 73 00:04:03,969 --> 00:04:02,000 mentioned that you do live fire training 74 00:04:06,759 --> 00:04:03,979 is that as opposed to other types of 75 00:04:08,409 --> 00:04:06,769 training yes well our training so it has 76 00:04:11,259 --> 00:04:08,419 a theory component and then we have a 77 00:04:12,929 --> 00:04:11,269 practical component the practical that 78 00:04:14,949 --> 00:04:12,939 we have is we light fires inside 79 00:04:17,229 --> 00:04:14,959 shipping containers for one of a better 80 00:04:18,819 --> 00:04:17,239 word and under controlled conditions we 81 00:04:21,370 --> 00:04:18,829 try and replicate the conditions that 82 00:04:23,649 --> 00:04:21,380 we'd have in a structure fire I see and 83 00:04:25,899 --> 00:04:23,659 you also train others or did you just 84 00:04:29,649 --> 00:04:25,909 train others or deal also fight fires 85 00:04:32,709 --> 00:04:29,659 yourself well of being in the service 86 00:04:35,070 --> 00:04:32,719 since 1987 so the first I suppose three 87 00:04:38,890 --> 00:04:35,080 quarters of my career was fighting fires 88 00:04:40,779 --> 00:04:38,900 but now that I'm more senior rank I just 89 00:04:42,999 --> 00:04:40,789 trained firefighters and only turn up to 90 00:04:45,879 --> 00:04:43,009 the larger fires on what we call an 91 00:04:47,290 --> 00:04:45,889 instant management team and do you do do 92 00:04:48,909 --> 00:04:47,300 do rescue work as well because I know 93 00:04:51,820 --> 00:04:48,919 firefighters do a rescue work quite a 94 00:04:54,189 --> 00:04:51,830 lot I'll look for sure I mean once again 95 00:04:56,620 --> 00:04:54,199 for all of my operational career I 96 00:04:59,800 --> 00:04:56,630 suppose when I was in a fire station and 97 00:05:02,020 --> 00:04:59,810 actively turning out to instance rescue 98 00:05:05,020 --> 00:05:02,030 with a domestic 99 00:05:07,810 --> 00:05:05,030 rescues I suppose in motor vehicle 100 00:05:10,420 --> 00:05:07,820 accidents and also industrial rescues in 101 00:05:12,670 --> 00:05:10,430 your profile you mentioned the signs of 102 00:05:14,470 --> 00:05:12,680 your occupation can you tell me a little 103 00:05:16,390 --> 00:05:14,480 bit about what it means and if you can 104 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:16,400 give some examples especially my 105 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:18,050 submitter I'd be particularly interested 106 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:20,090 if some of your examples could relate to 107 00:05:26,350 --> 00:05:22,490 the victorian bushfires because we have 108 00:05:28,270 --> 00:05:26,360 had a bit of a chat about that yeah my 109 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:28,280 more expertise sort of extends to the 110 00:05:32,410 --> 00:05:30,890 structure fire which is a little bit 111 00:05:33,490 --> 00:05:32,420 different to the bush fires but but 112 00:05:37,450 --> 00:05:33,500 basically just to give a bit of 113 00:05:39,250 --> 00:05:37,460 background the fire service is well the 114 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:39,260 New South Wales Fire Brigade has been 115 00:05:46,060 --> 00:05:43,370 around since 1884 when beef prior that 116 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:46,070 we had insurance fire brigades so people 117 00:05:49,990 --> 00:05:48,170 would ensure their houses and dumb and 118 00:05:52,930 --> 00:05:50,000 then the insurance brigades would 119 00:05:54,940 --> 00:05:52,940 protect those particular houses and at 120 00:05:57,280 --> 00:05:54,950 the turn of that other century before 121 00:05:59,620 --> 00:05:57,290 last now that he saw the best way was to 122 00:06:01,660 --> 00:05:59,630 join those fire services together and 123 00:06:04,060 --> 00:06:01,670 became the New South Wales Fire Brigades 124 00:06:06,250 --> 00:06:04,070 so we've been fighting fires for well 125 00:06:08,770 --> 00:06:06,260 well over 100 years but in a lot of ways 126 00:06:12,300 --> 00:06:08,780 the fighting of the fires was was 127 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:12,310 experiential there was in fact the 128 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:14,450 cultures and traditions if your likes 129 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:17,210 that are passed on in what I sort of 130 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:19,370 described as a tribal method of teaching 131 00:06:23,410 --> 00:06:21,170 and learning where the more experienced 132 00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:23,420 member would pass on their experiences 133 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:26,270 to the next person and we certainly you 134 00:06:30,580 --> 00:06:27,890 know articulated that in our in our 135 00:06:32,380 --> 00:06:30,590 manuals and so on but it was still the 136 00:06:34,270 --> 00:06:32,390 way with the way we viewed fire in fort 137 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:34,280 fires hadn't really changed over the 138 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:36,890 over the last hundred years we were to 139 00:06:42,340 --> 00:06:39,970 port fire science when we were recruited 140 00:06:44,110 --> 00:06:42,350 and certainly knew about what we call 141 00:06:45,250 --> 00:06:44,120 the fire triangle and I suppose I 142 00:06:49,420 --> 00:06:45,260 probably talked about that a bit later 143 00:06:53,070 --> 00:06:49,430 on but in a lot of ways we didn't really 144 00:06:55,180 --> 00:06:53,080 understand that fire environment and 145 00:06:57,700 --> 00:06:55,190 therefore there were many sayings like 146 00:07:00,220 --> 00:06:57,710 fire is unpredictable and I suppose in 147 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:00,230 some ways you know it wasn't really our 148 00:07:03,460 --> 00:07:02,330 fault if we didn't perform as well as we 149 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:03,470 would have liked or we got ourselves 150 00:07:08,230 --> 00:07:05,930 into danger because because of that 151 00:07:11,140 --> 00:07:08,240 unpredictability and basically it was 152 00:07:13,210 --> 00:07:11,150 just a bad fire that day so I mean I 153 00:07:15,460 --> 00:07:13,220 supposed to give an example of where 154 00:07:17,380 --> 00:07:15,470 we've come and to lead into 155 00:07:20,650 --> 00:07:17,390 to where my career started going in a 156 00:07:23,650 --> 00:07:20,660 different direction was I joined in 1987 157 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:23,660 in 1991 I was still wearing the same 158 00:07:27,910 --> 00:07:25,610 uniform that I was that was being worn 159 00:07:29,290 --> 00:07:27,920 in eighteen eighty four the only 160 00:07:32,020 --> 00:07:29,300 difference being we had a plastic helmet 161 00:07:34,060 --> 00:07:32,030 instead of a metal helmet at the time it 162 00:07:36,540 --> 00:07:34,070 didn't seem strange but as I look back 163 00:07:38,980 --> 00:07:36,550 now if you look at the advancements I 164 00:07:41,890 --> 00:07:38,990 suppose human kind of made in that time 165 00:07:44,620 --> 00:07:41,900 to still be wearing and using similar 166 00:07:45,910 --> 00:07:44,630 equipment 100 years later sort of gives 167 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:45,920 you an indication of where the fire 168 00:07:51,010 --> 00:07:48,770 service was in terms of sort of looking 169 00:07:53,500 --> 00:07:51,020 at fire differently so in the early 170 00:07:56,410 --> 00:07:53,510 2000s I I was a station officer in one 171 00:07:59,020 --> 00:07:56,420 of the the fire stations in Sydney and I 172 00:08:00,820 --> 00:07:59,030 read a book called fog attack by an 173 00:08:04,750 --> 00:08:00,830 English firefighter called Paul Grimwood 174 00:08:07,210 --> 00:08:04,760 and here he had spent time in Sweden and 175 00:08:09,730 --> 00:08:07,220 in Europe where a lot of the fire 176 00:08:11,409 --> 00:08:09,740 service personnel there are also what we 177 00:08:12,820 --> 00:08:11,419 caught fire engineers so they're done 178 00:08:15,610 --> 00:08:12,830 degrees at university in particular 179 00:08:17,260 --> 00:08:15,620 wound University in Sweden and we're 180 00:08:20,740 --> 00:08:17,270 starting to sort of apply the scientific 181 00:08:22,780 --> 00:08:20,750 methods to how they fought fires and 182 00:08:24,370 --> 00:08:22,790 they were combining me I suppose the 183 00:08:27,370 --> 00:08:24,380 science personnel with the operational 184 00:08:31,180 --> 00:08:27,380 personnel and looking at how best to 185 00:08:36,130 --> 00:08:31,190 fight fires so I found myself on a trip 186 00:08:38,350 --> 00:08:36,140 to Sweden in 2002 to look at how they 187 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:38,360 viewed fire and some of those scientific 188 00:08:43,089 --> 00:08:41,050 methods but not in bushfires 189 00:08:45,579 --> 00:08:43,099 unfortunately there's a whole science on 190 00:08:47,470 --> 00:08:45,589 its own but in terms of how a fire 191 00:08:49,060 --> 00:08:47,480 reacts in what we call a compartment so 192 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:49,070 every structure fire whether it be a 193 00:08:54,660 --> 00:08:52,610 factory or a smaller residence is still 194 00:08:56,829 --> 00:08:54,670 just a compartment of a certain size and 195 00:08:59,410 --> 00:08:56,839 construction with a certain fuel load 196 00:09:01,180 --> 00:08:59,420 and we now steady study very carefully 197 00:09:03,190 --> 00:09:01,190 how fire operates within those 198 00:09:04,710 --> 00:09:03,200 boundaries yeah you mentioned the fire 199 00:09:07,900 --> 00:09:04,720 triangle do you want to expand on that 200 00:09:11,380 --> 00:09:07,910 yeah every firefighter since the moment 201 00:09:13,780 --> 00:09:11,390 they they join we call it the job since 202 00:09:14,980 --> 00:09:13,790 they join the job has known about the 203 00:09:18,610 --> 00:09:14,990 fire triangle it's actually a bit more 204 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:18,620 complex than that it's sort of but it's 205 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:20,930 a combination of heat fuel and oxygen 206 00:09:27,910 --> 00:09:23,810 and without that triangle if you like a 207 00:09:29,319 --> 00:09:27,920 heat fuel and oxygen the fire can exist 208 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:29,329 so when we look at our extinguishment 209 00:09:33,550 --> 00:09:31,010 methods when we look at our control 210 00:09:36,009 --> 00:09:33,560 mechanisms to keep a fire how we want it 211 00:09:38,379 --> 00:09:36,019 to be we look at controlling one of 212 00:09:41,050 --> 00:09:38,389 those three items obviously when we use 213 00:09:44,139 --> 00:09:41,060 water we try and cool the heat we're 214 00:09:46,300 --> 00:09:44,149 very careful how we allow access to a 215 00:09:48,310 --> 00:09:46,310 fire in terms of oxygen whether that's 216 00:09:50,860 --> 00:09:48,320 breaking a window or opening a door or 217 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:50,870 what we call ventilation and then we 218 00:09:55,269 --> 00:09:52,970 also try and manage the fuel load so 219 00:09:56,949 --> 00:09:55,279 with that very simple sort of three 220 00:09:59,680 --> 00:09:56,959 sided triangle of heat fuel and oxygen 221 00:10:01,449 --> 00:09:59,690 we try and control the fire you said 222 00:10:03,850 --> 00:10:01,459 that you specialize in structural fire 223 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:03,860 but is there a similar science to bush 224 00:10:08,500 --> 00:10:06,290 fires as well oh look without a doubt 225 00:10:10,150 --> 00:10:08,510 and and I think we still have the fire 226 00:10:13,900 --> 00:10:10,160 try but we still have heat fuel and 227 00:10:15,850 --> 00:10:13,910 oxygen in a bushfire what we what really 228 00:10:18,069 --> 00:10:15,860 makes a difference I suppose you could 229 00:10:20,110 --> 00:10:18,079 say the fuel is different it's it's 230 00:10:22,030 --> 00:10:20,120 placed in a different manner but the 231 00:10:24,579 --> 00:10:22,040 main difference from where I sit in 232 00:10:26,710 --> 00:10:24,589 terms of a structural firefighter is the 233 00:10:29,230 --> 00:10:26,720 smoke is allowed to escape in a bush 234 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:29,240 fire or a virus fire in a structure fire 235 00:10:33,340 --> 00:10:31,490 that smoke stays within the structure or 236 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:33,350 within the compartment and it's that 237 00:10:38,199 --> 00:10:36,410 smoke that is also a form of fuel and 238 00:10:39,759 --> 00:10:38,209 that's sort of the main difference in 239 00:10:44,439 --> 00:10:39,769 where our firefighting is now heading in 240 00:10:45,579 --> 00:10:44,449 the past we didn't view smokers fuel we 241 00:10:48,189 --> 00:10:45,589 just viewed it as something that 242 00:10:49,509 --> 00:10:48,199 inhibited in our visibility we couldn't 243 00:10:52,329 --> 00:10:49,519 breathe in it so we could not write in 244 00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:52,339 it without breathing apparatus but we 245 00:11:00,189 --> 00:10:55,310 never quite made that real link to the 246 00:11:01,780 --> 00:11:00,199 to the smoke being fuel and that's one 247 00:11:03,310 --> 00:11:01,790 of the major things over the last 10 248 00:11:05,460 --> 00:11:03,320 years we've been working very hard on 249 00:11:07,569 --> 00:11:05,470 and one of the major things that I 250 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:07,579 looked at in Sweden when i first 251 00:11:11,949 --> 00:11:10,130 traveled there the main impetus for a 252 00:11:13,750 --> 00:11:11,959 lot of this sort of study and a change 253 00:11:16,449 --> 00:11:13,760 in the way we fight fires and i'll get 254 00:11:18,759 --> 00:11:16,459 back to i suppose the message up into my 255 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:18,769 profile was that what we call extreme 256 00:11:24,269 --> 00:11:22,370 fire behavior or rapid fire progress has 257 00:11:26,710 --> 00:11:24,279 killed firefighters around the world and 258 00:11:28,689 --> 00:11:26,720 understanding how the fire reacts and 259 00:11:32,199 --> 00:11:28,699 what we can do about it is all about 260 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:32,209 keeping firefighters safer and a lot of 261 00:11:36,090 --> 00:11:34,130 the research and Sweden a lot of the new 262 00:11:38,949 --> 00:11:36,100 techniques and tactics they were using 263 00:11:41,689 --> 00:11:38,959 was all based on coming to grips with 264 00:11:43,059 --> 00:11:41,699 with three I suppose extreme fire 265 00:11:46,309 --> 00:11:43,069 phenomenon and they were flashover 266 00:11:47,689 --> 00:11:46,319 backdraft and fire gasps ignitions a lot 267 00:11:50,499 --> 00:11:47,699 of people probably heard about backdraft 268 00:11:52,819 --> 00:11:50,509 from the old fire movie and so on but 269 00:11:55,220 --> 00:11:52,829 certainly flashover and fire gasps 270 00:11:57,710 --> 00:11:55,230 ignitions are ever-present danger for 271 00:12:00,319 --> 00:11:57,720 firefighters and our techniques now deal 272 00:12:02,569 --> 00:12:00,329 with that and a lot of that is based on 273 00:12:05,150 --> 00:12:02,579 a firefighter having the underpinning 274 00:12:06,619 --> 00:12:05,160 knowledge to anticipate that event 275 00:12:08,869 --> 00:12:06,629 occurring and then doing something about 276 00:12:10,579 --> 00:12:08,879 it is critical thinking applied only 277 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:10,589 during training and need predefined 278 00:12:15,129 --> 00:12:12,689 procedures or firefighters also trained 279 00:12:19,159 --> 00:12:15,139 to think critically on their feet both 280 00:12:20,929 --> 00:12:19,169 its I often say to my to my trainees and 281 00:12:23,239 --> 00:12:20,939 that we do the most difficult job in the 282 00:12:25,039 --> 00:12:23,249 world and I don't think a lot of people 283 00:12:27,590 --> 00:12:25,049 sort of realize that because we work in 284 00:12:30,999 --> 00:12:27,600 an environment which is time critical we 285 00:12:33,470 --> 00:12:31,009 have a rapidly changing hostile 286 00:12:35,509 --> 00:12:33,480 environment a very dynamic environment 287 00:12:37,099 --> 00:12:35,519 so when we first arrived we have certain 288 00:12:39,349 --> 00:12:37,109 things occurring and this gets back to 289 00:12:41,150 --> 00:12:39,359 the the old saying fires unpredictable 290 00:12:43,489 --> 00:12:41,160 but of course it's not unpredictable 291 00:12:45,409 --> 00:12:43,499 it's totally predictable it has to obey 292 00:12:47,299 --> 00:12:45,419 the laws of science what is 293 00:12:49,509 --> 00:12:47,309 unpredictable is when we arrive at an 294 00:12:51,859 --> 00:12:49,519 incident we're only seeing snapshots of 295 00:12:53,449 --> 00:12:51,869 we're seeing a certain amount of the 296 00:12:55,249 --> 00:12:53,459 smoke we're seeing what color it is 297 00:12:57,049 --> 00:12:55,259 we're seeing what velocity it's coming 298 00:12:59,659 --> 00:12:57,059 from the building we're seeing how much 299 00:13:01,999 --> 00:12:59,669 flame we may have we're looking at other 300 00:13:03,460 --> 00:13:02,009 windows black and we're looking at all 301 00:13:05,299 --> 00:13:03,470 these things and what we're trying to do 302 00:13:07,009 --> 00:13:05,309 we're trying to put together how much 303 00:13:08,989 --> 00:13:07,019 fuel might be inside what the 304 00:13:11,900 --> 00:13:08,999 construction is what the building 305 00:13:13,579 --> 00:13:11,910 profile is the building profile it is 306 00:13:16,039 --> 00:13:13,589 how air may move throughout that 307 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:16,049 structure if I open this building up in 308 00:13:20,179 --> 00:13:17,730 a certain way will that allow the fire 309 00:13:22,519 --> 00:13:20,189 to have more air and so on so we have 310 00:13:23,539 --> 00:13:22,529 but we're anything small snapshots so 311 00:13:26,599 --> 00:13:23,549 we're only seeing a very small 312 00:13:28,689 --> 00:13:26,609 percentage of the actual fire act as 313 00:13:31,759 --> 00:13:28,699 it's showing itself and it's our 314 00:13:32,989 --> 00:13:31,769 inability I suppose to to make sense of 315 00:13:35,749 --> 00:13:32,999 that that makes the fire very 316 00:13:38,119 --> 00:13:35,759 unpredictable so we have certainly in 317 00:13:39,769 --> 00:13:38,129 our procedures we have procedures in an 318 00:13:42,049 --> 00:13:39,779 underpinning knowledge which which has 319 00:13:44,629 --> 00:13:42,059 us to a size up and try to make sense of 320 00:13:46,729 --> 00:13:44,639 what the fire is telling us in a lot of 321 00:13:48,229 --> 00:13:46,739 ways we call that reading the fire we 322 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:48,239 then have to anticipate where the fires 323 00:13:53,199 --> 00:13:50,850 heading because invariably when we start 324 00:13:55,519 --> 00:13:53,209 to put in place some sort of proactive 325 00:13:57,199 --> 00:13:55,529 firefighters in certain positions or 326 00:13:59,360 --> 00:13:57,209 or we start to sort of fight this fire 327 00:14:01,220 --> 00:13:59,370 it will have moved on from where it was 328 00:14:02,809 --> 00:14:01,230 before and some of the things that we do 329 00:14:06,499 --> 00:14:02,819 may may cause it to move in certain 330 00:14:08,059 --> 00:14:06,509 directions traditionally this sort of 331 00:14:11,269 --> 00:14:08,069 very much standard operational procedure 332 00:14:13,939 --> 00:14:11,279 type of setup as mean that firefighters 333 00:14:16,639 --> 00:14:13,949 have sometimes become I suppose like 334 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:16,649 robots in that we will check out our 335 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:18,569 checklist I'll safety checklist and 336 00:14:21,829 --> 00:14:20,370 we'll do what we do in certain 337 00:14:24,319 --> 00:14:21,839 circumstances because that's what we've 338 00:14:26,629 --> 00:14:24,329 done before but one of the key things in 339 00:14:28,460 --> 00:14:26,639 the last ten years is that we are 340 00:14:31,009 --> 00:14:28,470 training firefighters to be more 341 00:14:32,780 --> 00:14:31,019 critical thinkers to be more flexible to 342 00:14:35,689 --> 00:14:32,790 work outside the square our building 343 00:14:38,449 --> 00:14:35,699 construction now our type of fuels the 344 00:14:40,460 --> 00:14:38,459 type of fires we fight now require this 345 00:14:43,069 --> 00:14:40,470 type of thinking it's sort of our 346 00:14:45,290 --> 00:14:43,079 training and element we use it we look 347 00:14:46,989 --> 00:14:45,300 on as toolboxes and it's up to the 348 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:46,999 firefighter to select the best tool 349 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:49,410 given his underpinning knowledge or her 350 00:14:53,290 --> 00:14:50,850 underpinning knowledge and apply to the 351 00:14:56,299 --> 00:14:53,300 situation so it's a very dynamic 352 00:14:58,249 --> 00:14:56,309 situation and it's very difficult to to 353 00:14:59,720 --> 00:14:58,259 train someone and that's why we have the 354 00:15:01,670 --> 00:14:59,730 live-fire training we actually light 355 00:15:04,009 --> 00:15:01,680 around fires we put firefighters in 356 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:04,019 those situations under controlled 357 00:15:09,860 --> 00:15:07,170 conditions and so they can experience 358 00:15:12,049 --> 00:15:09,870 that before they they actually do in a 359 00:15:15,079 --> 00:15:12,059 real sense can you tell us about 3d 360 00:15:17,299 --> 00:15:15,089 firefighting yeah well 3d firefighting 361 00:15:19,610 --> 00:15:17,309 sort of was a term sort of coined by 362 00:15:21,379 --> 00:15:19,620 core Grimwood who was the author that I 363 00:15:23,629 --> 00:15:21,389 first read before I sort of supposed 364 00:15:25,730 --> 00:15:23,639 started my journey into looking at how 365 00:15:27,170 --> 00:15:25,740 to fight fires in a different way and it 366 00:15:28,939 --> 00:15:27,180 involves I think a lot of things would 367 00:15:30,740 --> 00:15:28,949 just talked about it involves a 368 00:15:32,809 --> 00:15:30,750 firefighter looking in a three get you 369 00:15:35,150 --> 00:15:32,819 know more three-dimensional sense in the 370 00:15:37,129 --> 00:15:35,160 past we probably had a very 371 00:15:39,619 --> 00:15:37,139 straightforward mission and that was 372 00:15:42,860 --> 00:15:39,629 basically due to to put water on to the 373 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:42,870 fire and take that heat away and quite 374 00:15:47,629 --> 00:15:44,970 often that that led to sort of a tunnel 375 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:47,639 like view where firefighters would enter 376 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:49,050 rapidly they would move quickly through 377 00:15:53,540 --> 00:15:50,490 the structure trying to find the source 378 00:15:54,919 --> 00:15:53,550 of the heat quite often in most fires by 379 00:15:56,329 --> 00:15:54,929 fighters are lucky to be able to see 380 00:15:59,269 --> 00:15:56,339 their hand in front of their face so you 381 00:16:02,090 --> 00:15:59,279 losing a lot of your other senses in a 382 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:02,100 lot of ways because you're you're trying 383 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:04,290 to access the place which is hottest to 384 00:16:08,090 --> 00:16:05,850 impact on that in the quickest amount of 385 00:16:09,150 --> 00:16:08,100 time you actually become a bit of a heat 386 00:16:11,309 --> 00:16:09,160 seeker for one a bit 387 00:16:12,660 --> 00:16:11,319 word it was very much two-dimensional it 388 00:16:14,819 --> 00:16:12,670 was very much about just that one 389 00:16:17,819 --> 00:16:14,829 mission to get that hose line in to 390 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:17,829 attack the fire and quite often we had a 391 00:16:20,850 --> 00:16:19,690 mission running at the same time and 392 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:20,860 that was to rescue many people that 393 00:16:25,050 --> 00:16:23,170 might be inside and quite often both of 394 00:16:27,329 --> 00:16:25,060 those missions cause the conflict in the 395 00:16:30,059 --> 00:16:27,339 thinking of the firefighter in a 3d 396 00:16:32,879 --> 00:16:30,069 sense we're looking at now at looking at 397 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:32,889 the the compartment and a three 398 00:16:36,780 --> 00:16:34,810 dimensional sense looking at the fuel 399 00:16:38,970 --> 00:16:36,790 load looking at the surrounding 400 00:16:41,819 --> 00:16:38,980 construction and once again looking at 401 00:16:44,699 --> 00:16:41,829 that smoke and just I can't I suppose 402 00:16:47,420 --> 00:16:44,709 exaggerate more anymore the importance 403 00:16:50,189 --> 00:16:47,430 of how we now view smokin and in the 404 00:16:52,769 --> 00:16:50,199 development of a standard room fire it's 405 00:16:55,410 --> 00:16:52,779 that smoke that causes the most danger 406 00:16:57,559 --> 00:16:55,420 to five phones if we have a small fire 407 00:16:59,850 --> 00:16:57,569 in a room maybe it's damned on a bed 408 00:17:03,300 --> 00:16:59,860 maybe it's in a kitchen maybe it's on 409 00:17:05,730 --> 00:17:03,310 the stove or fire starts more in that 410 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:05,740 case and what we have then is as that 411 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:08,650 fire starts to grow it will burn we call 412 00:17:12,630 --> 00:17:10,089 it either burning Lenalee or burning 413 00:17:15,029 --> 00:17:12,640 richly we have a flammability range just 414 00:17:16,770 --> 00:17:15,039 like we do at explosive gases if a fire 415 00:17:18,809 --> 00:17:16,780 has plenty of oxygen there probably 416 00:17:21,809 --> 00:17:18,819 won't be much smoke it'll burn very lean 417 00:17:23,460 --> 00:17:21,819 we'll have them plenty of flame but in a 418 00:17:25,439 --> 00:17:23,470 compartment it each soon starts to run 419 00:17:27,510 --> 00:17:25,449 low on that oxygen the fire is still 420 00:17:29,370 --> 00:17:27,520 burning but the smoke will start to dark 421 00:17:31,980 --> 00:17:29,380 and it will start to be thicker and we 422 00:17:34,380 --> 00:17:31,990 call that that smoke unburned products 423 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:34,390 of combustion this carbon is sought as 424 00:17:37,830 --> 00:17:36,130 various chemicals and that's that's 425 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:37,840 visibly what we can see in the smoke but 426 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:39,370 what happens that smoke is hard it will 427 00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:41,770 rise but it can't go anywhere unlike a 428 00:17:45,810 --> 00:17:43,600 bushfire so we'll start to layer back 429 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:45,820 down and we call that the neutral plane 430 00:17:50,370 --> 00:17:49,090 and that's the layer of smoke so you 431 00:17:52,049 --> 00:17:50,380 might have heard before whenever people 432 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:52,059 are trapped in a fire we say to get down 433 00:17:56,850 --> 00:17:55,210 low and go-go-go because down low you 434 00:17:58,760 --> 00:17:56,860 still have less seat and you will still 435 00:18:02,159 --> 00:17:58,770 have air to breathe and good visibility 436 00:18:04,260 --> 00:18:02,169 so in a in a compartment that smoke 437 00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:04,270 starts to come down and we still can 438 00:18:07,860 --> 00:18:06,130 have a relatively small fire but it's 439 00:18:11,279 --> 00:18:07,870 growing and the smoke is getting hotter 440 00:18:12,750 --> 00:18:11,289 now at about 700 800 degrees that smoke 441 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:12,760 comes into its auto-ignition temperature 442 00:18:18,990 --> 00:18:16,570 and it will reburn so as that room 443 00:18:20,549 --> 00:18:19,000 reaches that temperature the all of the 444 00:18:22,350 --> 00:18:20,559 smoke inside the room which meant now 445 00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:22,360 may only be a couple of feet off the 446 00:18:24,930 --> 00:18:22,960 ground 447 00:18:27,149 --> 00:18:24,940 we'll then burst into flame and that's 448 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:27,159 what we call flash over and from that 449 00:18:29,940 --> 00:18:28,570 point then the room is then fully 450 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:29,950 involved and you're talking at 451 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:31,570 temperatures above a thousand degrees 452 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:34,570 and that can happen very rapidly in a 453 00:18:39,060 --> 00:18:37,210 matter of seconds so we can have 454 00:18:41,159 --> 00:18:39,070 firefighters entering in structure we 455 00:18:43,260 --> 00:18:41,169 have a fire burning we have hot smoke 456 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:43,270 filling the room and the heat is 457 00:18:47,519 --> 00:18:45,490 increasing we may also have a fire that 458 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:47,529 is low on oxygen at this stage here so 459 00:18:50,940 --> 00:18:49,090 the fire is not burning quite as well as 460 00:18:52,380 --> 00:18:50,950 it should the actions of the 461 00:18:55,169 --> 00:18:52,390 firefighters even entering that 462 00:18:58,409 --> 00:18:55,179 structure there now providing a fresh 463 00:18:59,940 --> 00:18:58,419 air way the fire can now intensify it 464 00:19:02,039 --> 00:18:59,950 will get bigger the smoke will get 465 00:19:04,950 --> 00:19:02,049 hotter and once again we can bring on 466 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:04,960 that flash over so what we do now is we 467 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:07,090 have firefighters and this is something 468 00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:08,890 we never did in the past we now actively 469 00:19:14,220 --> 00:19:11,520 try and cool that gas layer we use our 470 00:19:17,580 --> 00:19:14,230 specially designed nozzles so put up a 471 00:19:19,769 --> 00:19:17,590 very fine water fog into those hot gases 472 00:19:21,810 --> 00:19:19,779 and if we can keep those hot gases below 473 00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:21,820 the auto-ignition temperature we can 474 00:19:26,070 --> 00:19:23,710 stop the room from flashing over and 475 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:26,080 stop this rapid fire progress so 476 00:19:30,299 --> 00:19:28,330 firefighters in the past and for most of 477 00:19:32,279 --> 00:19:30,309 my career we would always hold our water 478 00:19:34,740 --> 00:19:32,289 we would never use our water until we 479 00:19:37,289 --> 00:19:34,750 found the actual fire because we used 480 00:19:39,810 --> 00:19:37,299 our water indiscriminately we ran the 481 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:39,820 risk of steaming yourself or lessening 482 00:19:44,039 --> 00:19:41,970 visibility and making conditions worse 483 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:44,049 and and this is where the the 484 00:19:47,310 --> 00:19:45,490 fundamental change has been in 485 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:47,320 firefighting training and this was 486 00:19:51,149 --> 00:19:48,970 started by the Swedes in the early 80s 487 00:19:53,970 --> 00:19:51,159 where they actively use their their 488 00:19:56,250 --> 00:19:53,980 water before they reach the fire to cool 489 00:19:58,610 --> 00:19:56,260 the hot fire gases and stop the 490 00:20:01,769 --> 00:19:58,620 progression of the fire to full 491 00:20:05,490 --> 00:20:01,779 development and install flash over from 492 00:20:07,740 --> 00:20:05,500 occurring so our firefighters now sort 493 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:07,750 of make that those decisions on the run 494 00:20:11,639 --> 00:20:10,090 they assess they assess a fire they 495 00:20:13,649 --> 00:20:11,649 assess whether it wants more oxygen and 496 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:13,659 how to deal with that if they suspect 497 00:20:17,370 --> 00:20:15,730 that the fire wanted more air and most 498 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:17,380 fires we go to do because once again 499 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:19,450 they're enclosed in the structure they 500 00:20:23,639 --> 00:20:21,730 will actually do what we call anti 501 00:20:26,220 --> 00:20:23,649 ventilation they will close doors behind 502 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:26,230 them they will keep that fire that part 503 00:20:32,010 --> 00:20:27,970 of the fire triangle the oxygen side of 504 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:32,020 it suppressed so regardless of how hot 505 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:33,610 the fire gases are they won't be within 506 00:20:37,260 --> 00:20:36,370 their flammable range so constantly our 507 00:20:38,250 --> 00:20:37,270 firefighters law 508 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:38,260 are applying their underpinning 509 00:20:42,180 --> 00:20:40,570 knowledge based on science and the 510 00:20:45,210 --> 00:20:42,190 surrounding environment and how can they 511 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:45,220 can manipulate that to ensure the fire 512 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:47,770 stays under their control and that's a 513 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:49,450 very very powerful thing which we never 514 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:51,610 were able to do in the past without a 515 00:20:55,710 --> 00:20:53,650 complete understanding of how the fire 516 00:20:58,020 --> 00:20:55,720 operates and that's where the the 517 00:20:59,970 --> 00:20:58,030 critical thinking and the fire science 518 00:21:01,290 --> 00:20:59,980 and fire behavior comes in do you find 519 00:21:02,850 --> 00:21:01,300 that there are differences in approach 520 00:21:04,980 --> 00:21:02,860 between firefighters in different 521 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:04,990 countries I look without a doubt it's 522 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:07,690 sort of them you know I've trained and 523 00:21:13,050 --> 00:21:09,730 lectured in in Europe Great Britain and 524 00:21:15,060 --> 00:21:13,060 also in the States and in Asia the 525 00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:15,070 American firefighters are probably the 526 00:21:19,020 --> 00:21:17,110 most different it is funny in the fact 527 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:19,030 that the different we're probably ninety 528 00:21:22,410 --> 00:21:20,530 five percent of like and five percent 529 00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:22,420 different because we do do the same job 530 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:25,600 our traditions are very similar but we 531 00:21:28,110 --> 00:21:26,770 do have different ways in which we 532 00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:28,120 approach at the the building 533 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:30,130 construction in the states is different 534 00:21:33,390 --> 00:21:31,930 without getting too technical they have 535 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:33,400 a lot of tenement buildings they have a 536 00:21:37,050 --> 00:21:34,810 lot of timber buildings which are over a 537 00:21:38,940 --> 00:21:37,060 cup of couple of stories high so they 538 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:38,950 tend to use different tactics they tend 539 00:21:43,530 --> 00:21:40,690 to be more aggressive in these buildings 540 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:43,540 they tend to have a larger life risk the 541 00:21:48,780 --> 00:21:46,090 buildings most of our buildings that are 542 00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:48,790 medium rise to high rise of what we call 543 00:21:54,150 --> 00:21:50,710 design to survive the burn out of the 544 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:54,160 contents so it stays a contents fire and 545 00:21:59,370 --> 00:21:56,890 the structure itself doesn't burn so 546 00:22:01,170 --> 00:21:59,380 they're your glass and steel your double 547 00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:01,180 brick construction in the states where 548 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:02,710 you have a lot of timber buildings it 549 00:22:06,150 --> 00:22:04,210 becomes a structure fire very quickly 550 00:22:08,510 --> 00:22:06,160 and the life risk is enormous so they've 551 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:08,520 devised different ways of doing that 552 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:11,410 America is a very different fire service 553 00:22:16,230 --> 00:22:14,170 model they have over 30,000 separate 554 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:16,240 five services over there in Australia we 555 00:22:20,580 --> 00:22:18,610 have a level 11 separate spire services 556 00:22:22,050 --> 00:22:20,590 they have a huge volunteer base where 557 00:22:24,060 --> 00:22:22,060 we're training probably isn't as good as 558 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:24,070 it should be and they also there's this 559 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:26,410 very gung-ho attitude when I was in the 560 00:22:30,630 --> 00:22:28,570 States last I remember if I if I to 561 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:30,640 telling me that the the fire service is 562 00:22:36,210 --> 00:22:32,170 a hundred years of tradition unimpeded 563 00:22:37,950 --> 00:22:36,220 by progress so which which is it is very 564 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:37,960 true and it really was my own 565 00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:39,370 experiences up until a couple of years 566 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:41,710 ago but that the last 10 to 15 years 567 00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:43,570 certainly in Australia the fire services 568 00:22:47,220 --> 00:22:45,910 have had moved very much towards 569 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:47,230 critical thinking and a science-based 570 00:22:51,230 --> 00:22:50,050 approach whereas in the States I suppose 571 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:51,240 it's very traditional 572 00:22:58,110 --> 00:22:55,210 approach that it's okay to be 100 years 573 00:22:59,520 --> 00:22:58,120 of unimpeded by progress and they hold 574 00:23:02,700 --> 00:22:59,530 that very dear to their hearts in some 575 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:02,710 ways and in some ways the service it's 576 00:23:06,420 --> 00:23:04,330 very easy for that to occur because 577 00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:06,430 there's a lot of ownership I suppose 578 00:23:10,110 --> 00:23:09,130 when people do things hard they they put 579 00:23:11,910 --> 00:23:10,120 their lives at risk in some 580 00:23:15,210 --> 00:23:11,920 circumstances it's very hard to change 581 00:23:16,830 --> 00:23:15,220 if you've been successful and I say that 582 00:23:18,870 --> 00:23:16,840 no builded comments because some of the 583 00:23:20,340 --> 00:23:18,880 problems when the fire service is for 584 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:20,350 example I've never but every fire I've 585 00:23:24,510 --> 00:23:22,330 been to us out it eventually goes out 586 00:23:27,150 --> 00:23:24,520 sometimes it's very difficult to gauge 587 00:23:29,790 --> 00:23:27,160 how successful you were if the fire goes 588 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:29,800 out no one's injured so I think in the 589 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:31,170 past we haven't been as good at 590 00:23:37,980 --> 00:23:35,250 debriefing and validating our own 591 00:23:39,900 --> 00:23:37,990 techniques and experiences because it's 592 00:23:42,630 --> 00:23:39,910 been so easy to blame the fire and say 593 00:23:45,180 --> 00:23:42,640 it was just a bad fire that day so in 594 00:23:47,580 --> 00:23:45,190 the US they tend to be some brigades a 595 00:23:49,890 --> 00:23:47,590 very very proactive and very modern and 596 00:23:52,260 --> 00:23:49,900 cutting-edge and others are very very 597 00:23:53,790 --> 00:23:52,270 traditional in Europe once again 598 00:23:56,850 --> 00:23:53,800 traditions are very important but 599 00:23:59,310 --> 00:23:56,860 overall and probably led by Scandinavia 600 00:24:01,950 --> 00:23:59,320 and the UK very cutting edge in their 601 00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:01,960 technique in their understanding in 602 00:24:06,630 --> 00:24:04,240 their training of fire science and fire 603 00:24:09,390 --> 00:24:06,640 behavior and in Australia we're probably 604 00:24:12,570 --> 00:24:09,400 somewhere in between but we are very 605 00:24:14,940 --> 00:24:12,580 much a British a traditions lie with the 606 00:24:16,530 --> 00:24:14,950 British fire service so we tend to be 607 00:24:18,150 --> 00:24:16,540 very proactive in that area as well 608 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:18,160 among people who work in dangerous 609 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:20,170 professions there is often a high level 610 00:24:24,270 --> 00:24:22,210 of superstition do you find that that's 611 00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:24,280 true among your colleagues and do you 612 00:24:27,930 --> 00:24:26,110 have any personal superstitions related 613 00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:27,940 to your profession interesting 614 00:24:33,630 --> 00:24:30,640 interesting question but contended agree 615 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:33,640 with you on that I suppose there are 616 00:24:36,990 --> 00:24:34,930 some firefighters that that are 617 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:37,000 superstitious I think a lot of what we 618 00:24:41,790 --> 00:24:40,450 did was as you kept on doing it you'd 619 00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:41,800 build experience as I suppose in some 620 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:44,080 ways before we really concentrated on 621 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:46,090 the underpinning science and fire 622 00:24:50,970 --> 00:24:48,610 behavior we tended to look at a fire and 623 00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:50,980 say that doesn't look good or or say 624 00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:53,710 things like I just knew it was it this 625 00:24:57,570 --> 00:24:55,840 wasn't going to turn out well or I 626 00:24:59,250 --> 00:24:57,580 looked at it and just knew it wasn't 627 00:25:02,760 --> 00:24:59,260 right but we had trouble articulating 628 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:02,770 that just from our experiences we we 629 00:25:06,910 --> 00:25:04,850 would sort of say things like that and 630 00:25:09,250 --> 00:25:06,920 and we would maybe anticipate things 631 00:25:11,230 --> 00:25:09,260 before they happen but still not quite 632 00:25:13,390 --> 00:25:11,240 understand why they happened because of 633 00:25:16,060 --> 00:25:13,400 just just from experience and just from 634 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:16,070 seeing things occur in the past but in a 635 00:25:20,290 --> 00:25:17,690 lot of ways I think I think firefighters 636 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:20,300 are probably quite the opposite they can 637 00:25:26,890 --> 00:25:23,330 be very practical people they tend to 638 00:25:28,810 --> 00:25:26,900 trust I suppose trust more their own 639 00:25:31,030 --> 00:25:28,820 abilities rather than leave things to 640 00:25:32,650 --> 00:25:31,040 fate or four in a bit of a word they 641 00:25:35,470 --> 00:25:32,660 tend to trust in their their comrades 642 00:25:37,690 --> 00:25:35,480 and yeah just very practical people so I 643 00:25:40,390 --> 00:25:37,700 suppose that that offsets the the 644 00:25:43,150 --> 00:25:40,400 superstitious angle me in some ways but 645 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:43,160 interesting question but um I don't 646 00:25:46,330 --> 00:25:44,690 think we were over-represented in the 647 00:25:48,610 --> 00:25:46,340 superstitious side of things and like i 648 00:25:51,190 --> 00:25:48,620 said i think the practical nature of the 649 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:51,200 job probably overrides them all up in a 650 00:25:54,970 --> 00:25:53,090 lot of cases John McDonald thank you 651 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:54,980 very much for joining me on the skeptics 652 00:26:08,110 --> 00:25:56,690 on podcast No thank you very much for 653 00:26:10,540 --> 00:26:08,120 having me it was great hi I'm dr. ginger 654 00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:10,550 Campbell I started the brain science 655 00:26:16,150 --> 00:26:13,370 podcast in December 2006 with the 656 00:26:18,670 --> 00:26:16,160 tagline the show for everyone who has a 657 00:26:21,790 --> 00:26:18,680 brain because you don't need a PhD to 658 00:26:25,180 --> 00:26:21,800 enjoy my podcast all you need is 659 00:26:28,060 --> 00:26:25,190 curiosity about how our brains make us 660 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:28,070 who we are the brain science podcast is 661 00:26:33,460 --> 00:26:31,010 not a self-help show but understanding 662 00:26:36,550 --> 00:26:33,470 how the brain works will give you useful 663 00:26:39,490 --> 00:26:36,560 insights into your own behavior and the 664 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:39,500 behavior of others on the show I talk 665 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:41,330 about the latest books about the brain 666 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:44,290 and I interview leading scientists of 667 00:26:49,540 --> 00:26:46,730 course I would love to be discovered by 668 00:26:52,690 --> 00:26:49,550 NPR but until then you can find the 669 00:27:04,580 --> 00:26:52,700 brain science podcast in iTunes and at 670 00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:07,980 now it's time for dr. Rachel reports 671 00:27:16,500 --> 00:27:13,510 with dr. Rachel Dunlop hello listeners 672 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:16,510 and welcome to dr. Richie reports well 673 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:18,730 the avian or Australian vaccination 674 00:27:23,580 --> 00:27:21,610 network are not happy it seems another 675 00:27:25,980 --> 00:27:23,590 venue has pulled the plug on them at the 676 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:25,990 last minute this time the Uniting Church 677 00:27:31,710 --> 00:27:29,050 in the city of Perth withdrew access to 678 00:27:33,570 --> 00:27:31,720 their venue for a scheduled seminar due 679 00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:33,580 to be held in Perth on Friday night 680 00:27:38,580 --> 00:27:36,640 which is tonight according to the church 681 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:38,590 there were concerns raised by a number 682 00:27:42,690 --> 00:27:40,450 of people including prominent church 683 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:42,700 members who are experts in the field of 684 00:27:47,130 --> 00:27:44,890 ethics and Public Health that the 685 00:27:49,050 --> 00:27:47,140 message promoted by the avian is not in 686 00:27:51,750 --> 00:27:49,060 line with the ethos and values of the 687 00:27:53,700 --> 00:27:51,760 Uniting Church in Australia Meryl Dory 688 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:53,710 who is the immediate past president and 689 00:27:58,170 --> 00:27:56,170 now media spokesperson received 690 00:28:00,840 --> 00:27:58,180 notification as she was about to board a 691 00:28:05,630 --> 00:28:00,850 plane to travel from Brisbane to Perth a 692 00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:05,640 five hour and 3600 kilometre journey 693 00:28:10,260 --> 00:28:08,110 according to a newsletter sent after the 694 00:28:12,330 --> 00:28:10,270 event mrs. story was queuing to catch 695 00:28:14,610 --> 00:28:12,340 her flight when the mission development 696 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:14,620 officer for the Uniting Church called to 697 00:28:19,530 --> 00:28:17,290 break the news with less than 24 hours 698 00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:19,540 to go before the scheduled event and no 699 00:28:23,820 --> 00:28:21,370 venue for the hundred plus people 700 00:28:25,980 --> 00:28:23,830 already booked mrs. storey had no choice 701 00:28:27,660 --> 00:28:25,990 but to forfeit her plane tickets valued 702 00:28:31,950 --> 00:28:27,670 at seven hundred and fifty dollars and 703 00:28:34,650 --> 00:28:31,960 returned home and she is livid now the 704 00:28:36,330 --> 00:28:34,660 avian organised the current seminar to 705 00:28:38,580 --> 00:28:36,340 capitalize on the recent spate of 706 00:28:40,530 --> 00:28:38,590 adverse reactions to the seasonal flu 707 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:40,540 vaccine in children under five years of 708 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:42,850 age the vaccination program was 709 00:28:48,060 --> 00:28:45,010 suspended several weeks ago and remain 710 00:28:51,510 --> 00:28:48,070 so following reports of high fevers and 711 00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:51,520 febrile convulsions initial thoughts 712 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:53,710 that a bad batch was to blame have since 713 00:28:58,320 --> 00:28:56,170 been discounted following testing and 714 00:29:02,160 --> 00:28:58,330 information that more than one batch was 715 00:29:04,260 --> 00:29:02,170 involved the vaccine manufacturers CSL 716 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:04,270 and independent bodies are continuing to 717 00:29:10,350 --> 00:29:07,930 investigate but to date australia wide 718 00:29:11,490 --> 00:29:10,360 over 400 reactions have been reported in 719 00:29:13,710 --> 00:29:11,500 five states 720 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:13,720 the majority of which occurred in perth 721 00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:17,170 western australia most children have 722 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:19,510 recovered but one child in queensland 723 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:21,610 died 12 hours after receiving the 724 00:29:26,700 --> 00:29:24,610 vaccine the coroner found no evidence to 725 00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:26,710 implicate the vaccine but investigations 726 00:29:32,090 --> 00:29:30,310 are ongoing yet despite this mrs. dory 727 00:29:35,460 --> 00:29:32,100 states in her blurb for the seminar 728 00:29:37,350 --> 00:29:35,470 quote to date more than 300 serious 729 00:29:39,090 --> 00:29:37,360 reactions to the current seasonal flu 730 00:29:41,370 --> 00:29:39,100 shot have been reported in children 731 00:29:43,380 --> 00:29:41,380 under the age of five with one child 732 00:29:46,980 --> 00:29:43,390 known to have died within hours of being 733 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:46,990 vaccinated there is no mention that the 734 00:29:52,110 --> 00:29:50,290 coroner has found no evidence of this so 735 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:52,120 the avn seminar which has since been 736 00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:54,730 cancelled was called flu vaccines and 737 00:30:00,450 --> 00:29:57,730 informed choice and was to cover quote 738 00:30:02,250 --> 00:30:00,460 this talk examines the risk of flu to 739 00:30:04,230 --> 00:30:02,260 children the effectiveness of the 740 00:30:05,940 --> 00:30:04,240 vaccine and the additional risks to 741 00:30:09,450 --> 00:30:05,950 children's health of adding another 742 00:30:11,310 --> 00:30:09,460 vaccine to the childhood schedule in her 743 00:30:13,710 --> 00:30:11,320 talk Meryl Dorie will discuss how 744 00:30:16,260 --> 00:30:13,720 vaccines are intended to work and why it 745 00:30:17,790 --> 00:30:16,270 is that they often don't she will talk 746 00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:17,800 about the known side effects of 747 00:30:21,660 --> 00:30:20,110 childhood and adult shots and reveal 748 00:30:23,670 --> 00:30:21,670 that according to the Australian 749 00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:23,680 Government as few as one percent of 750 00:30:27,330 --> 00:30:25,600 vaccine reactions ever get reported 751 00:30:30,660 --> 00:30:27,340 leading to a belief that they are 752 00:30:32,490 --> 00:30:30,670 perfectly safe unquote but one of the 753 00:30:33,900 --> 00:30:32,500 criticisms that has been leveled at the 754 00:30:37,290 --> 00:30:33,910 government is the question of how 755 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:37,300 thoroughly the current 2010 seasonal flu 756 00:30:42,450 --> 00:30:40,450 triple antigen has been tested this 757 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:42,460 year's vaccine contains three viral 758 00:30:50,490 --> 00:30:46,810 components the h1n1 the h3n2 and the be 759 00:30:51,990 --> 00:30:50,500 Brisbane strain Ian bar who is the 760 00:30:54,060 --> 00:30:52,000 deputy director of the World Health 761 00:30:56,460 --> 00:30:54,070 Organization's influenza Center in 762 00:30:58,740 --> 00:30:56,470 Melbourne was interviewed on Monday 763 00:31:00,270 --> 00:30:58,750 April the 26th about the question of 764 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:00,280 whether the current seasonal flu 765 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:02,530 combination has been tested in clinical 766 00:31:08,430 --> 00:31:05,050 trials here's an excerpt from that 767 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:08,440 interview played on ABC radio in 768 00:31:12,810 --> 00:31:11,170 Australia we don't require that the 769 00:31:14,230 --> 00:31:12,820 points of vaccine the seasonal vaccine 770 00:31:15,950 --> 00:31:14,240 is 771 00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:15,960 combinations but they have done that 772 00:31:21,019 --> 00:31:18,809 overseas so they have tested in fact 773 00:31:24,980 --> 00:31:21,029 giving a full seasonal vaccine with the 774 00:31:27,169 --> 00:31:24,990 swine flu so for vaccines at once if you 775 00:31:29,659 --> 00:31:27,179 like and there were no untoward effects 776 00:31:31,669 --> 00:31:29,669 there so I think there's a high 777 00:31:34,190 --> 00:31:31,679 expectation that the combination of 778 00:31:35,930 --> 00:31:34,200 these three viruses will be no different 779 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:35,940 from any other three viruses which we 780 00:31:41,060 --> 00:31:38,370 include every year without doing for 781 00:31:43,399 --> 00:31:41,070 more safety testing which takes quite a 782 00:31:45,049 --> 00:31:43,409 period of time and is that extremely 783 00:31:46,879 --> 00:31:45,059 expensive and time-consuming so in your 784 00:31:49,279 --> 00:31:46,889 opinion the fact that it is a 785 00:31:51,769 --> 00:31:49,289 combination vaccine would have nothing 786 00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:51,779 to do with this situation that we've got 787 00:31:56,919 --> 00:31:54,000 at the moment as far as you know now I 788 00:31:59,269 --> 00:31:56,929 think that's unlikely to be a factor 789 00:32:02,440 --> 00:31:59,279 certainly all viruses are slightly 790 00:32:05,779 --> 00:32:02,450 different but in terms of how they're 791 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:05,789 produced in in the laboratory and tested 792 00:32:10,159 --> 00:32:07,850 in laboratory and then made in the 793 00:32:13,129 --> 00:32:10,169 commercial scale vaccine production 794 00:32:14,269 --> 00:32:13,139 areas they're all investigating 795 00:32:17,389 --> 00:32:14,279 individually for any particular 796 00:32:19,009 --> 00:32:17,399 differences in those viruses which might 797 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:19,019 lead to some of these things that we're 798 00:32:25,820 --> 00:32:23,130 seeing currently such as fever so I 799 00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:25,830 think that it's unlikely but I guess we 800 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:27,809 have to wait and see on analysis of 801 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:30,330 these particular batches is it possible 802 00:32:34,370 --> 00:32:32,090 that it might have just been a bad match 803 00:32:36,169 --> 00:32:34,380 well I think there is multiple batches 804 00:32:38,210 --> 00:32:36,179 involved so I think that's unlikely 805 00:32:39,769 --> 00:32:38,220 again if it was a single batch than you 806 00:32:41,269 --> 00:32:39,779 might think that might be the case that 807 00:32:43,759 --> 00:32:41,279 if multiple batches are involved in 808 00:32:46,789 --> 00:32:43,769 that's less likely I think but again we 809 00:32:48,710 --> 00:32:46,799 still need to wait so every year CS 810 00:32:50,810 --> 00:32:48,720 Elle's flu vax vaccine contains 811 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:50,820 fragments of three different types of 812 00:32:55,009 --> 00:32:53,130 influenza virus as recommended by the 813 00:32:56,899 --> 00:32:55,019 Therapeutic Goods Administration and 814 00:32:58,669 --> 00:32:56,909 this depends on the strains of 815 00:33:02,509 --> 00:32:58,679 infectious flu in the environment at the 816 00:33:04,850 --> 00:33:02,519 time in addition flu viruses mutate from 817 00:33:06,529 --> 00:33:04,860 season to season so vaccines become less 818 00:33:09,409 --> 00:33:06,539 effective and need to be modified to 819 00:33:11,629 --> 00:33:09,419 keep up with the current mutants the flu 820 00:33:13,820 --> 00:33:11,639 vaccine is tried and true technology 821 00:33:15,919 --> 00:33:13,830 only changing for the type of viral 822 00:33:18,649 --> 00:33:15,929 components year to year and there has 823 00:33:20,690 --> 00:33:18,659 not been a problem before but flu 824 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:20,700 vaccines are tested in Australia in 825 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:23,370 clinical trials just this combination 826 00:33:30,649 --> 00:33:27,690 has not flu vax jr. was tested in two 827 00:33:32,659 --> 00:33:30,659 five and 2006 and this showed a very 828 00:33:36,139 --> 00:33:32,669 good safety and efficacy profile in 829 00:33:38,180 --> 00:33:36,149 clinical trials in a group of 298 830 00:33:40,340 --> 00:33:38,190 children there were no reports of 831 00:33:42,259 --> 00:33:40,350 serious adverse events during the 832 00:33:45,409 --> 00:33:42,269 vaccination period or seven days 833 00:33:48,019 --> 00:33:45,419 following pan vax jr. which is the 834 00:33:51,379 --> 00:33:48,029 thimerosal free h1n one vaccine for 835 00:33:53,810 --> 00:33:51,389 children was tested in a 2009 trial and 836 00:33:55,940 --> 00:33:53,820 showed approximately thirty percent mild 837 00:33:58,340 --> 00:33:55,950 to moderate adverse events in children 838 00:34:01,430 --> 00:33:58,350 under the age of eight the clinical 839 00:34:03,470 --> 00:34:01,440 trial data was evaluated by the TGA and 840 00:34:06,379 --> 00:34:03,480 reviewed by the expert advisory 841 00:34:08,809 --> 00:34:06,389 committee on prescription medicines pan 842 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:08,819 box was approved by the TGA on december 843 00:34:16,180 --> 00:34:11,970 three 2009 and the national immunization 844 00:34:18,740 --> 00:34:16,190 program began on September the 30th 2009 845 00:34:20,839 --> 00:34:18,750 since then the TGA has been closely 846 00:34:24,139 --> 00:34:20,849 monitoring any side effects from the use 847 00:34:26,659 --> 00:34:24,149 of the vaccine and to date approximately 848 00:34:29,899 --> 00:34:26,669 six million doses of pan vacs have been 849 00:34:31,879 --> 00:34:29,909 distributed in Australia and a total of 850 00:34:35,359 --> 00:34:31,889 twelve hundred and eighty nine adverse 851 00:34:37,399 --> 00:34:35,369 events have been reported to the TGA but 852 00:34:39,349 --> 00:34:37,409 importantly it has not yet been clearly 853 00:34:41,349 --> 00:34:39,359 established if these adverse events 854 00:34:44,059 --> 00:34:41,359 reported in Perth Western Australia 855 00:34:47,030 --> 00:34:44,069 constitute a true spike in adverse 856 00:34:49,490 --> 00:34:47,040 events the federal government's chief 857 00:34:51,980 --> 00:34:49,500 medical officer professor Jim Bishop 858 00:34:53,809 --> 00:34:51,990 said some three million doses of the 859 00:34:56,240 --> 00:34:53,819 seasonal flu vaccine have gone out this 860 00:34:58,700 --> 00:34:56,250 year with up to two-thirds sent to Perth 861 00:35:01,099 --> 00:34:58,710 Western Australia this could be a 862 00:35:03,140 --> 00:35:01,109 partial explanation as to why the state 863 00:35:06,170 --> 00:35:03,150 has experienced a much higher rate of 864 00:35:09,790 --> 00:35:06,180 complications normally expected in one 865 00:35:12,859 --> 00:35:09,800 out of every 1,000 to 10,000 cases and 866 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:12,869 also Western Australia now provides the 867 00:35:17,390 --> 00:35:15,210 seasonal flu shot for free to children 868 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:17,400 under five whereas the rest of the 869 00:35:21,470 --> 00:35:19,650 country doesn't the initiative to 870 00:35:24,770 --> 00:35:21,480 distribute free vaccinations for 871 00:35:26,870 --> 00:35:24,780 children was started after a 2007 flu 872 00:35:29,150 --> 00:35:26,880 season where eight children across 873 00:35:31,910 --> 00:35:29,160 Australia under the age of five died 874 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:31,920 within 24 hours of developing mild and 875 00:35:37,970 --> 00:35:33,810 nonspecific symptoms of respiratory 876 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:37,980 infection as part of the trial in 2008 877 00:35:43,349 --> 00:35:41,170 almost 65 thousand children aged 5 878 00:35:46,609 --> 00:35:43,359 younger in Western Australia received 879 00:35:48,420 --> 00:35:46,619 free flu vaccinations and this reduced 880 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:48,430 hospitalizations by eighty-eight percent 881 00:35:53,849 --> 00:35:51,010 the state's health department has said 882 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:53,859 but then scientific facts and evidence 883 00:35:58,620 --> 00:35:56,410 are not something that the avn seems to 884 00:36:01,349 --> 00:35:58,630 care too much about but perhaps the 885 00:36:03,329 --> 00:36:01,359 Uniting Church does this is not the 886 00:36:05,970 --> 00:36:03,339 first time the avian has been refused 887 00:36:10,049 --> 00:36:05,980 access to a venue after having organized 888 00:36:11,970 --> 00:36:10,059 books and advertised a seminar in 2009 889 00:36:14,579 --> 00:36:11,980 they were forced to find another venue 890 00:36:16,799 --> 00:36:14,589 at short notice after a school in South 891 00:36:19,020 --> 00:36:16,809 Australia declined their appearance 892 00:36:22,260 --> 00:36:19,030 following notification of the nature of 893 00:36:24,420 --> 00:36:22,270 their material someone pondered on 894 00:36:26,430 --> 00:36:24,430 facebook today that the avian would save 895 00:36:28,620 --> 00:36:26,440 themselves a lot of time hassle and 896 00:36:31,799 --> 00:36:28,630 money if they weren't so liberal with 897 00:36:34,470 --> 00:36:31,809 the truth whilst publicly claiming to be 898 00:36:37,109 --> 00:36:34,480 pro-choice the avian preachers a clear 899 00:36:39,210 --> 00:36:37,119 anti-vaccination message designed to 900 00:36:41,970 --> 00:36:39,220 scare parents into shunning vaccinations 901 00:36:44,099 --> 00:36:41,980 for their children here's an excerpt 902 00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:44,109 from Australia's nightly news show the 903 00:36:50,069 --> 00:36:47,440 7pm project Australia's immunization 904 00:36:51,299 --> 00:36:50,079 rate is now at a seven-year low with 905 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:51,309 only eighty-three percent of 906 00:36:56,069 --> 00:36:53,410 four-year-olds covered the issue has 907 00:36:58,349 --> 00:36:56,079 divided parents none more so than Sonia 908 00:37:00,780 --> 00:36:58,359 and Martyn Williams the vaccine debate 909 00:37:02,549 --> 00:37:00,790 almost ended their marriage I like to 910 00:37:05,130 --> 00:37:02,559 see myself as an open person that just 911 00:37:06,359 --> 00:37:05,140 looking at all evidence happen if you 912 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:06,369 had a choice you wouldn't you were no 913 00:37:14,340 --> 00:37:12,210 vaccinated he had a choice I pretend 914 00:37:16,740 --> 00:37:14,350 basically it comes down to a stalemate 915 00:37:18,450 --> 00:37:16,750 and I literally had to put the marriage 916 00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:18,460 on the line it was either the kids get 917 00:37:22,860 --> 00:37:21,310 vaccinated or Martin leap so I was sort 918 00:37:25,770 --> 00:37:22,870 of end up being an obvious choice after 919 00:37:28,620 --> 00:37:25,780 that didn't man at this stage the kids 920 00:37:30,510 --> 00:37:28,630 it healthy you know Ethan has a slight 921 00:37:34,050 --> 00:37:30,520 learning difficulty and so forth connect 922 00:37:35,580 --> 00:37:34,060 the computer to the vaccination the 923 00:37:37,710 --> 00:37:35,590 speech pediment is not due to the 924 00:37:40,290 --> 00:37:37,720 vaccinations oh my god it is not today 925 00:37:43,170 --> 00:37:40,300 you know as you can create a spell rages 926 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:43,180 on suffice it to say the avian has 927 00:37:46,770 --> 00:37:44,650 flooded the church with letters of 928 00:37:48,690 --> 00:37:46,780 complaint claiming a right to free 929 00:37:50,310 --> 00:37:48,700 speech likening the church's 930 00:37:52,500 --> 00:37:50,320 cancellation of the seminar to the 931 00:37:55,470 --> 00:37:52,510 persecution of Jesus amongst other 932 00:37:59,070 --> 00:37:55,480 things here's what Meryl Dory had to say 933 00:38:01,770 --> 00:37:59,080 quote I'm certainly not saying that what 934 00:38:03,540 --> 00:38:01,780 we're doing is godlike in any way but I 935 00:38:05,700 --> 00:38:03,550 mean that the sort of things that Jesus 936 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:05,710 put up with in his lifetime is the sort 937 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:07,570 of things that are happening with anyone 938 00:38:13,020 --> 00:38:09,610 who questions the status quo on 939 00:38:14,970 --> 00:38:13,030 vaccinations the church has also issued 940 00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:14,980 a statement which says amongst other 941 00:38:19,500 --> 00:38:17,680 things one of the church's concerns is 942 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:19,510 that there may be a public perception 943 00:38:24,930 --> 00:38:22,450 that the UCI see does not support 944 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:24,940 childhood vaccinations due to the avn 945 00:38:29,460 --> 00:38:27,130 seminar being held in our rooms in 946 00:38:31,740 --> 00:38:29,470 addition the level of public response 947 00:38:34,140 --> 00:38:31,750 has raised security concerns for other 948 00:38:37,410 --> 00:38:34,150 users of our buildings this is something 949 00:38:38,970 --> 00:38:37,420 we wish to avoid if you'd like to 950 00:38:44,130 --> 00:38:38,980 contact the church with your thoughts 951 00:38:47,370 --> 00:38:44,140 please go to dub dub dub dot W a dot you 952 00:38:50,490 --> 00:38:47,380 see a dot org dot a you and follow the 953 00:38:58,520 --> 00:38:50,500 links to contact us and until next time 954 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:01,920 this is brian dunning from sceptile calm 955 00:39:06,510 --> 00:39:04,690 skep tide is a short weekly podcast 956 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:06,520 taking a critical look at the 957 00:39:11,250 --> 00:39:08,890 pseudo-sciences that infect popular 958 00:39:13,980 --> 00:39:11,260 culture whenever I'm not locked in the 959 00:39:25,069 --> 00:39:13,990 recording studio I'm listening to the 960 00:39:31,259 --> 00:39:27,959 thank you for listening to the skeptic 961 00:39:32,849 --> 00:39:31,269 zone now my good friend Travis Roy sent 962 00:39:35,699 --> 00:39:32,859 me a message so I'm going to pass it 963 00:39:38,849 --> 00:39:35,709 along to you Granite State skeptics will 964 00:39:41,809 --> 00:39:38,859 be having a skeptics panel at Granite 965 00:39:45,029 --> 00:39:41,819 con in Manchester New Hampshire on the 966 00:39:47,099 --> 00:39:45,039 twenty-third of May lots of interesting 967 00:39:50,940 --> 00:39:47,109 people coming along skeptical people to 968 00:39:54,890 --> 00:39:50,950 take part of the granite con please have 969 00:39:58,559 --> 00:39:54,900 a look for more information at Granite 970 00:40:01,910 --> 00:39:58,569 con-com or of course at Granite State 971 00:40:03,870 --> 00:40:01,920 skeptics dot-com anybody in the area 972 00:40:05,099 --> 00:40:03,880 this is going to be really worth 973 00:40:06,809 --> 00:40:05,109 checking out they've got some people 974 00:40:09,269 --> 00:40:06,819 coming from the James Randi Educational 975 00:40:12,690 --> 00:40:09,279 Foundation what are my good friends 976 00:40:14,670 --> 00:40:12,700 kitty is going along Jeff wag lots of 977 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:14,680 other people certainly worth checking 978 00:40:19,289 --> 00:40:17,890 out but in the meantime thank you for 979 00:40:21,150 --> 00:40:19,299 listening with the skeptic zone and 980 00:40:23,009 --> 00:40:21,160 thank you for those people writing in 981 00:40:25,109 --> 00:40:23,019 telling me that they yes last week I 982 00:40:27,839 --> 00:40:25,119 help them go to sleep as soon as they 983 00:40:29,759 --> 00:40:27,849 hear my voice off they go so until next 984 00:40:35,609 --> 00:40:29,769 week this is Richard Saunders signing 985 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:35,619 off from Sydney Australia you've been 986 00:40:42,989 --> 00:40:37,930 listening to the skeptic zone visit our 987 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:42,999 website at WWF tag zoomtv the comments 988 00:40:52,270 --> 00:40:47,410 contacts and extra video reports